JW Salvation and who is Jesus
One of the more interesting things about the cults is that they require obedience to the Law of God, in one form or another, to be saved. This JW actually stated that he is keeping the Law of God. He stated he has no pride, no lust, no arrogance, etc.,--an amazing self-deception. But, when you don't have the true Christ and have no fellowship with Him, then it is natural to state that you are upholding the Law of God just fine since it is a sign of the lack of regeneration of the person. No one can keep the Law of God--No one--except Jesus who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14).
Also, notice that we jumped around the topics a bit. That is natural for the text chat medium. But, I wish I could have stayed on the topic better.
Finally, notice how the JW really doesn't address the issues I raise. He touches on them but doesn't want to get very deep into them. Oh well.
Pete: Hey Matt. Are you collecting information for carm?
Pete: Thought so, how come you don't address the issues you have already?
Matt: What do you mean? That doesn't make sense to me.
Pete: Check out the sight [he posted a cult website]. It refutes a lot of the problems you have about jw's
Matt: Oh, that? I've seen it. Naw, they aren't refutations. There are lots of problems there. All in good time.
Pete: They seem to be working good.
Matt: Working good?
Pete: Besides, any body who truly studies what jw's believe know that there is no room to oppose.
Matt: You're a jw?
Pete: But of course. I'm not apologetic though
Matt: May I ask you a question?--basic question. What must YOU do to be forgiven of your sins?--YOU personally as a JW.
Matt: Are you saying that if you repent, then your sins are automatically forgiven?
Pete: If you repent to God, just as Jesus said.
Matt: Got a verse for that?
Pete: Not off hand, and I really don't feel like getting into it. When are you going to quote from the society telling me your interpretation of it being any different?
Matt: This is easy stuff. Well, do you know what "justification" is?
Pete: Of course.
Pete: Its a part of repentance.
Matt: No, it is not. Justification is being declared righteous in God's sight. Repentance is the cessation of sin. They are different. We are justified before God and by faith. Romans 5:1 tells us so. But, the WT says differently. According to the Watchtower Organization, Feb. 15, 1983, p. 12, there are four requirements for salvation as taught by the Watchtower magazine. "Jesus Christ identified a first requirement when he said in prayer to his Father: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3). Many have found the second requirement more difficult. It is to obey God's laws, yes, to conform one's life to the moral requirements set out in the Bible. This includes refraining from a debauched, immoral way of life. 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 4:3, 4." The second one is the important one here. The WT says you must obey God's laws and conform your life to the moral requirements set out in the Bible. Have you done that? Are you obeying God's law?
Matt: So you are obeying all of God's law?
Pete: The Christian law
Matt: No lying? No lust?
Matt: No pride?
Matt: No arrogance?
Matt: Then you are perfect.
Pete: Never perfect
Matt: Here is a secret . . . you will never find it in the WT. The closer you get to Jesus, the more you realize you can never keep the Law and the more you realize how wicked you really are down deep. All the cults consider themselves worthy by their own works as you have just stated.
Pete: Jesus is my personal savior
Matt: Real Christians, who know the real Christ, never say such things. Really? Personal savior? Who forgives you of your sins?
[To avoid confusion, the first sentence in the previous comment by me is dealing with the JW keeping the Law--real Christians don't say they are keeping all the law of God. The rest of it is dealing with his saying Jesus is his personal savior].
Pete: Of course Jesus does. His name represents how he saves as well. The name "Jehovah is salvation" Isaiah 12:1.
Matt: Now, do you ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins?
Pete: Yes, the way the bible tells us to pray
Pete: Ask God through Jesus,
Matt: I didn't ask that. I asked if you ask JESUS specifically to forgive you of your sins. I can ask Him. Can you?
Pete: No cause that would be wrong.
Matt: In Matt. 11:28, Jesus said, "Come to ME."
Pete: Jesus didn't say "MY SELF IN HEAVEN!"
Matt: If Jesus said to come to Him, then how do you do that if you don't ask Him to forgive you of your sins?
Pete: Jesus said "Our Father in heaven"
Matt: I understand but can you answer my question?
Pete: Not just him. Don't you know the scripture?
Matt: Yes, I know the scripture. Again, if Jesus said to come to Him, then how do you do that if you don't ask Him to forgive you of your sins?
Pete: It says "There is one mediator between God and man." Who is that?
Matt: Can you please answer my question? If Jesus said to come to Him, then how do you do that if you don't ask Him to forgive you of your sins?
Pete: So we are to pray to whom? Pay attention matt its not hard.
Matt: Please do not be insulting.
Pete: I'm not. I just wish you to pay attention is all.
Matt: I know your argument. You quote Matthew where Jesus said to pray this way, Our Father, who art in Heaven, etc. I know that.
Pete: That's the problem with apologists. They can't pay attention.
Matt: I have asked you a question: If Jesus said to come to Him, then how do you do that if you don't ask Him to forgive you of your sins? You haven't answered it yet.
Pete: I have answered. You just weren't paying attention.
Matt: Jesus said "come to ME." Have you gone TO Jesus? Matt. 11:28, Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt: How have YOU gone TO Jesus?
Pete: Yes matt I have. That's how I know to pray to his father for forgiveness.
Matt: Please tell me how YOU have gone TO Jesus?
Pete: By accepting him as the son of God
Matt: Where does it say that in the Bible? I have a question for you. Does the phrase Son of Man mean that Jesus is a man?
Pete: "No one can get to the father except through me"
Pete: NO it means that he was son of Man.
Matt: Son of Man--son of which man?
Pete: Born through the line of David.
Matt: Are you saying that the term Son of Man means that He is not a man?
Pete: What did I say matt? please read our conversation.
Matt: I am. You answer the question unclearly.
Pete: Well the blind can't see in front of there face.
Matt: Where does it say in the Bible that the term Son of Man means the line of David? You make statements but you don't back them up.
Pete: Matt I told you from the get go that I didn't want to go into it with you. I answered your questions
Matt: But you ARE getting into it with me. You make a statement but can't back it up.
Pete: If you don't remember them in the bible, that's not my problem.
Matt: Me? You are the one making the statement. If you can't back it up, that is your problem--not mine.
Pete: Maybe when I feel better we can go into scriptures a bit better and Ill show you black and white
Matt: So, you say that the phrase, Son of God, means that Jesus is not God, right?
Matt: Then it would seem that the phrase, Son of Man, would mean that Jesus is not a man . . . by your logic.
Pete: So Jesus is an it? Thank you matt. You cleared all that up we don't need the rest of the bible. Just use your logic
Matt: An "it"? Not sure what you mean. But you didn't make any sense to me. I notice that you aren't responding to my last comment. Why is that?
Pete: Because by the logic you just gave me Jesus isn't man, nor is he God, so he must be an it.
Matt: I am using your logic. You said that the phrase Son of God means that Jesus is not God. I then responded by asking if the phrase Son of Man then means that Jesus is not a man.
Pete: But then again Matt.
Matt: You didn't respond to that.
Pete: Matt then again. Jesus said that the Jews were Gods. Does that make them God Almighties?
Matt: Where did He say the Jews were gods?
Matt: Are you trying to refer to John 10:33?
Pete: John 10:36
Matt: 36, right.
Pete: Come on and flip it. I'm waiting.
Matt: Okay, that is a quote from Psalm 82:6 where the unrighteous Judges of Israel had the power of life and death over the Israelites.
Pete: . . . yes, and isn't the only time man were called gods.
Matt: Yet, if you read the next verse, Psalm 82:7, it says, "Nevertheless you will die like men, and fall like any one of the princes." Now, that clearly means that Jesus was telling the Pharisees that they are in big trouble. But, you deny that Jesus is God, right?
Pete: Yes, and angels can die as well---just as Jesus died as a man.
Matt: You deny that Jesus is God, right?
Pete: I deny that Jesus is Almighty God, just as Jesus did.
Matt: In John 10:30-36, the Pharisees also denied that Jesus is God. I can't help noticing that you agree with the Jews there. You agree with them that Jesus is not God.
Pete: Actually if you want to be technical.
Matt: John 10:33, the Jews said, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
Pete: The Jews said that he was making himself to be divine same word was used there as used in verse 36.
Matt: See? But, of course, they, like you, don't believe Jesus is claiming to be God, right?
Pete: Matt please pay attention. Pay attention to what you type and your quotes.
Matt: NO, the Greek word there in verse 33 is theos. That is Greek for God.
Pete: You contradict your own self same as theos in 36.
Matt: I do not contradict myself--not at all. You agree with the Jews that Jesus is not God.
Pete: LOL, bye Matt.
Matt: This dialogue would be great for my site. Mind if I use it?
Pete: Only if you wanna make your self look worse. Go ahead
Pete: I would love to laugh at this
Matt: It will help demonstrate how JW's work and think. cya
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