by Matt Slick
I was working on something related to CARM when a Mormon started messaging me on Facebook. I don't know how he found me, but he just started off by asking if I'd ever heard of Joseph Smith. At first, I didn't know how much I wanted to get involved in the conversation because I knew it would take more time than I had since I was about to get ready for my radio show. That is why in this dialogue I was more direct. In addition I have a speech recognition program so I could provide text much quicker than the Mormon. That, combined with a lot of ready-made information on CARM, I was able to, hopefully, give him something to think about.
Ryan: Hey have you ever heard about Joseph smith the true prophet.
Matt: I have heard of Joseph Smith
Ryan: What do you think about the catholic, Jw and Mormon church.
Matt: They are all false. Do you believe god is an exalted man?
Ryan: Yes he has a glorified body of flesh and bone as well. All those churches seem very Christ like.
Matt: So your god came from another world?
Ryan: According to the pearl of great price he dwelt on a planet called kolob.
Matt: So your god is a life form from another planet? With a mate? So you worship an alien?
Matt: That is what a life form from another planet really is.
Ryan: Hahaha Alright look.
Matt: Your God is a man from another planet. Who has a wife. They have sexual relations in heaven and produce spirit babies.Your church teaches exaltation if you can keep celestial law and attain the level of the church of the firstborn in celestial heaven
Matt: Are you keeping celestial law?
Ryan: Yeah I am working on it.
Matt: So you are NOT keeping it.
Ryan: Progressing. Well I am. But. Iwhat I mean is that I am not perfect.
Matt: That means you will never be exalted to become a God because you're not keeping celestial law. Your prophet Kimball said in the book miracle of forgiveness, that trying is not good enough. Are you doing all you can do to be saved? 2 Nephi 25:23, "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
Ryan: I have this life to progress and to become like my father in heaven.
Matt: So you're not doing all you can do? That means your sins are not forgiven. In Mormonism, grace is sufficient only after you deny yourself of all ungodliness. Moroni 10:32, "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and IF YE SHALL DENY YOURSLEVES OF ALL UNGODLINESS, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN IS HIS GRACE SUFFICIENT FOR YOU, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God." Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness? And if you break your covenant with God in any way and sin again, then all your former sins return to you. DC 82:7, "And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." You have no hope and because you have no hope, you have nothing to offer me. I mean no offense, but you do not know the true God or the true gospel.
Ryan: Look. This is what I mean.I am keeping the law.
Matt: Deuteronomy 27:26 which is referenced by Paul in Galatians 3:10 says that you must keep the law perfectly.You already said you're not keeping the law perfectly. Therefore, your sins are not forgiven according to your own teachings
And trying to become more like Jesus do the things he did to obtain that glory. That's a false gospel. The true gospel is that Jesus did everything that was necessary according to the law. He never sinned 1 Pet. 2:22. You don't know it, but you are self-righteous. That's what Jesus taught about people who add works to his work (Luke 18:9-14).
Ryan: No I said that I keep the law but make mistakes here and there.
Matt: Then you're not keeping the law. Deuteronomy 27:26 says you have to keep all of it.If you fail in one area you're guilty of all, Galatians 3:10. Your desire to earn godhood by keeping the law is impossible.
Ryan: I dont think that you understand the scriptures.
Matt: The standard is God's perfection. Your sincerity is not good enough. If you think that your sincerity somehow merits position with God, then that is arrogance because you are saying your efforts and your sincerity actually can earn favor with the infinitely holy God of the universe.
Ryan: The work we do is the lords work.
Matt: It is certainly possible that I don't understand Scripture...I've been studying the word of God for a very long time.The problem is that you believe what Joseph Smith said.
Ryan: We are all sinners.
Matt: Joseph Smith said he saw God the Father. But the Bible says no man can see God the Father (John 6:46; 1 Tim. 6:16)Therefore Joseph Smith did not tell you the truth.
Ryan: We all need his grace in our life. Show me in what context does 1st timothy 6:16 talk about the Father.
Matt: It's simple. Read it. Start about verse 13. You will see it speaks of God and of Jesus. Therefore you see at least two persons. It says that God dwells in unapproachable light and no man has seen or can see. Obviously that's not Jesus. So it has to be God the Father. Therefore, Joseph Smith lied about seeing God the Father.
Matt: "God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet," (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409)
After about 10 minutes
Matt: Did you check 1 Tim. 6:16? you've had plenty of time. You see, it all depends on whether or not you believe Joseph Smith. But since Joseph Smith conttradicts the Scripture about seeing God the Father, that should cause you great pause. Furthermore, it was Joseph Smith who boasted he did more than Jesus to keep the church together. Joseph Smith did not tell you the truth about seeing God the Father and he boasted about doing more than Jesus. Is this the man you want to trust to reveal to you spiritual truth?