Which is true, the Bible or the Qur'an? part 2
Matt: But is not repentance and sincerity something offered to an infinitely holy God by a person who has sinned against God and who is not finite and unholy? How can this be?
Kareem: Why bother listening to a God who you can never please? If you try to Please God, he is not pleased. If you do not try to please God, He is still not pleased... why bother... sounds like a catch 22 situation to me...
Matt: I think you are understanding Christianity, now...at least a bit more. This is why the Bible says that the only one who can please God is God Himself.
Kareem: With the catch 22 situation?
Matt: You see, we Christians have an extremely high view of God's holiness. We cannot please God, at all. But Jesus, who is God the Son in flesh, is able to please God the Father. Therefore, we trust in what Jesus did, not in what we do.
Matt: We trust in the sacrifice of Jesus to please God and we do not rely on ourselves. To rely on ourselves is to be prideful. It is to say that we are able to please an infinitely holy God. That would be arrogant.
Kareem: Not really
Matt: Yes, really. I am not appealing to my own self to be able to please God. But, aren't you doing that?
Kareem: If God has said man can please God by doing such and such, and then we deny this, I think that is being arrogant.
Matt: Aren't you appealing to your own repentance and your own sincerity as a means to be able to please an infinitely holy God?
Matt: Ah, but has God said it or not?
Matt: You see, this is where it comes back to the evidence supporting Islam and that supporting Christianity.
Matt: Muhammad did not rise from the dead. Jesus did. Muhammad killed people. Jesus did not. Muhammad did not have detailed prophecies about him and his coming. Jesus did. Muhammad did not claim to be divine. Jesus did claim to be divine. Muhammad did not walk on water. Jesus did.
Kareem: This depends on the source upon which rely, you say God said this and speak from the Bible, and I say God said this and Speak from the Qur'an AND The Hadith,
Matt: Yes, and we are back to which is true, correct?
Kareem: What remains to be proven is whose source is correct, which in fact can be demonstrated
Matt: Did Muhammad rise from the dead?
Matt: Jesus rose from the dead.
Matt: Whom should I trust then?
Kareem: This can go on tit for tat like a children's game (no disrespect here). My prophet did this, did yours? etc. etc.
Matt: Yes it can. But the fact is that the evidence will count for something.
Kareem: I can then ask, Did Jesus split the moon, etc. etc?
Matt: You can say that the Qur'an is uncorrupted and I can deny that, and vice versa about the Bible. Split the moon? I am aware of that claim? Muhammad did it with a sword, right? And, did he not also say that the sun set in mud? If I were you, I'd not go there.
Kareem: Again, I do not deny that Jesus performed miracles by the command of God. The Qur'an is clear about this.
Matt: Yes, he did many miracles. How many did Muhammad do?
Kareem: The Qur'an and Hadith speak clearly of Jesus and Other Prophets Miracles.
Matt: Is it not fair to say that the one who does many more miracles has much more power?
Kareem: Muhammad did many miracles.
Matt: Such as?
Kareem: No, because these miracles were done by the permission of God. Jesus himself is not God according to the Qur'an.
Matt: Then God gave greater permission to Jesus than Muhammad since Jesus did so many miracles. Also, Jesus is God, according to the Bible.
Kareem: According to the Bible.
Matt: Yes, and the New Testament documents is 99.5% textually pure. Did you know that?
Kareem: Now, the Miracles of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) are many, I will go through them with you if you wish, after looking them up, but the Primary Miracle of Muhammad (SAW) is with us right now, this minute and this is the Qur'an. Yes the Qur'an itself is a living miracle
Matt: One miracle, the Qur'an?
Kareem: Unlike the miracles of Jesus Christ (by the permission) which appeared 2000 years ago and now you only read about them in books.
Matt: Jesus raised people from the dead, walked on water, commanded the weather, commanded demons to leave people, etc. Did Muhammad do any of this? Did Muhammad cure leprosy? Cure sick people? Jesus did. Why should I NOT trust Jesus and what He said since He backed up what He said by His many miracles? Where in the Qur'an are the miracles of Muhammad?
Kareem: Because what Muhammad said is backed up by the Qur'an...... a miracle. You are forgetting something.....the source of Islam is not ONLY the Qur'an.
Matt: What Jesus said was backed up by His MANY miracles.
Kareem: You keep forgetting.
Matt: The source of Christianity is Jesus.
Kareem: What Muhammad (SAW) is still backed up today by a Miracle.
Matt: What miracle?
Kareem: The Qur'an.
Matt: That makes no sense.
Matt: Saying that the existence of the Qur'an proves Muhammad was true is meaningless. If we use your logic, then the mere existence of the Bible proves that Jesus was true.
Kareem: No of course not.
Matt: Since the Bible says that Jesus is God in flesh, then it must be true and He is greater than Muhammad. Then you cannot appeal to the existence of the Qur'an as the proof that Muhammad was correct.
Kareem: But the existence of the Qur'an as a MIRACLE proves Muhammad was a True Messenger.
Matt: Then likewise the existence of the Bible and the MIRACLES performed by Jesus, proves Jesus was God in flesh, as He said He was.
Kareem: So... do you believe in revelation?
Matt: Yes, Jesus revealed God to us and the Bible is the revelation of God. It records the many many miracles of Jesus who claimed to be divine and that the Bible says is divine.
Kareem: No, you see the Bible talks of miracles, whereas the Qur'an IS a Miracle.
Matt: Saying the Qur'an is a miracle is meaningless. So what if the Qur'an exists? So?
Kareem: Ok if I can prove to you that the Qur'an is a miracle would you accept it as revelation?
Matt: Of course. Go ahead and try and prove that the Qur'an is a miracle.
Kareem: I am glad you have sincerity.
Matt: I am not afraid of facts. Truth is that which agrees with reality.
Kareem: May God increase you in sincerity and me and guide us all to his way.
Matt: Reality is truth and facts. So, I am never afraid to look at them.
Kareem: I envy your attitude.
Matt: But, please try and prove to me that the Qur'an is a miracle; that is, from God.
Kareem: To prove it is from God the Qur'an must contain information that man cannot know.
Matt: The Bible fits this statement.
Kareem: To prove that God is author of the Qur'an is what I will attempt to do. One thing that strikes us about the Qur'an is that it contains things that we don't expect.
Matt: That is also true of the Bible.
Kareem: We have an old book, from 14 centuries ago and we expect it to look like that, an old book from 14 centuries ago, but some of the things mentioned in the Qur'an talk about modern discoveries which could never have been known 14 centuries ago. Muhammad (SAW) was a man who we could not read or write. Only the few fortunate and rich could read and write in those days. If we are to say the Qur'an was written by Muhammad, who could not read or write; this is not possible.
Matt: We Christians have a book from 2000 years ago. Many of the things in the Bible are scientific discoveries today.
Kareem: The Qur'an was compiled and completed in his lifetime, not after.
Matt: The Earth is suspended in nothing, "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing," (Job. 26:7, NIV). The Existence of Valleys in the Seas, "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV). Also, the New Testament was written by those who knew Jesus personally. The Qur'an wasn't compiled until long after Muhammad was dead.
Matt: The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas, "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas," (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV). So far, you have not given me anything that is not in the Bible.
Kareem: Wrong my friend.
Matt: What other evidence do you have that proves that the Qur'an is from God?
Kareem: The hadith were compiled after, not the Qur'an.
Matt: You may be correct, but I would have to check. What other evidence do you have that proves that the Qur'an is from God?
Kareem: Well, now that you have touched on the topic of science, let's compare and contrast the science in the Qur'an and in the Bible.
Kareem: So can you type the verse again on the topic of oceans.
Matt: The Existence of Valleys in the Seas, "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV). The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas, "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas," (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV). The Hydrologic Cycle, "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight," (Job. 26:8, NIV). "He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind," (Job. 36:27-28, NIV). "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again," (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7, NIV).
Kareem: This property of the seas, that they come together yet do not mingle with one another at all, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension", the waters of neighboring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them. The Qur'an says... "He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through."
(The Qur'an, 55:19-20). The interesting side to this is that during a period when people had no knowledge of physics, surface tension, or oceanography, this was revealed in the Qur'an.
Matt: Okay, then by your logic, the Bible is inspired since it talks about valleys in the seas, ocean currents, and the hydrologic cycle, all of which, were not known until recent times. Besides, your surah is interpretable. Barrier between them can be read to mean many things. It can mean mountains, are not mountains barriers?
Kareem: During sexual intercourse, 250 million sperms are emitted from the male at a time. The sperms undertake an arduous journey in the mother's body until they make it to the ovum. Only a thousand out of 250 million sperms succeed in reaching the ovum. At the end of this five-minute race, the ovum, half the size of a grain of salt, will let only one of the sperms in. That is, the essence of man is not the whole semen, but only a small part of it. This is explained in the Qur'an: "Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled (without purpose)? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen?"
(The Qur'an, 75:36-37)
Matt: Again, that is quite interpretable and you are reading into it a lot more than what it says. Look, you have tried to prove the Qur'an true and I have shown you that the Bible fits the same criteria that you have given for the Qur'an. Since the Bible contradicts the Qur'an, they cannot both be true. Your method has left us only with confusion since your proofs do not establish one above the other.
Kareem: When the sperm of the male unites with the ovum of the female, the essence of the baby to be born is formed. This single cell, known as a "zygote" in biology, will instantly start to reproduce by dividing, and eventually become a "piece of flesh" called an embryo. This of course can only be seen by human beings with the aid of a microscope. The embryo, however, does not spend its developmental period in a void. It clings to the uterus just like roots that are firmly fixed to the earth by their tendrils. Through this bond, the embryo can obtain the substances essential to its development from the mother's body. Here, at this point, a very significant miracle of the Qur'an is revealed. While referring to the embryo developing in the mother's womb, God uses the word "alaq" in the Qur'an: "Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created man from alaq. Recite: And your Lord is the Most Generous." (The Qur'an, 96:1-3)
The meaning of the word "alaq" in Arabic is "a thing that clings to some place". The word is literally used to describe leeches that cling to a body to suck blood. Certainly, the use of such an appropriate word for the embryo developing in the mother's womb, proves once again that the Qur'an is a revelation from God, the Lord of all the Worlds. But wait I haven't finished.
Matt: Are you not reading what I have written to you?
Kareem: You can't possibly declare a book not to be true in five minutes.
Matt: You have tried to prove the Qur'an true and I have shown you that the Bible fits the same criteria that you have given for the Qur'an. Since the Bible contradicts the Qur'an, they cannot both be true. Your method has left us only with confusion since your proofs do not establish one above the other.
Kareem: This is a long discussion, requires patience and sincerity
Matt: I understand, but you have not established your point.
Kareem: And no, the bible does not fit the same criteria as I have not finished.
Matt: The criteria you have used also applies to the Bible and the Bible contradicts the Qur'an. Therefore, your proof is not proof. You said earlier that the Qur'an has things in it not knowable by the people of the time. I have shown you several things in the Bible that meet that criteria. The Existence of Valleys in the Seas, "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV). The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened," (Genesis 7:11, NIV). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov. 8:28.
Kareem: Have you even read the last example, I am just warning you up, you have no idea of what is to come
Matt: Hold on. I am not interested in going further. You have made a statement about a proof. I have shown you that your "proof" also applies to the Bible. This is what you need to address now.
Kareem: Of course there is a big difference.
Matt: The Bible revealed that which was not known until recent times: The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas, "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas," (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV).
Kareem: "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV).
.. where is the science required in this?
Matt: Then you admit that the Lord did this and it is accurately recorded in the Bible? The Earth is suspended in nothing, "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing," (Job. 26:7, NIV). If not, then why quote it?
Kareem: The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas, "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas," (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV). And where is the advancement of science required in this?
Matt: You are missing the point. The Bible revealed that which was not knowable: valleys in the sea as well as paths.
Kareem: You see, the Bible does not meet the criteria, of the Qur'an because the Qur'anic statements require the advancement of modern technology
Matt: That the stars are innumerable: "He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be," (Gen. 15:5, NIV).
Kareem: But I can even today, without reading the bible look up and know that I cannot count the stars
Matt: Of course it requires scientific advancement to be able to map the valleys of the oceans, know their currents, understand entropy, the hydrologic cycle, etc. These are revealed in the Bible. The only problem is that you are not sincere. You are not sincerely looking at the facts. How then, can you trust your judgments?
Kareem: Can you today, without science, and without Qur'an tell me that when the embryo is a leech like clot which clings to the womb of a mother?
Matt: Tell me how it is possible for ancient man to be able to know of valleys in the seas, or the ocean currents. First of all, your suras are highly interpretable. Second, I have matched your criteria with biblical examples. You're proof is not proof.
Kareem: I knew you would say that.
Matt: Knowing I would say it does not mean it isn't true.
Kareem: Qur'an is interpretable, but the Bible isn't?
Matt: I see. That is it?
Kareem: And the Bible, has been, written, and rewritten and rewritten again and again.
Matt: You have just demonstrated that you do not know how the Bible was written or preserved.
Matt: You have only repeated what you have heard. I mean no disrespect, but you are not accurate in this.
Kareem: The Qur'an is as it was in its complete form untouched since it was revealed. How many versions of the bible are there?
Matt: That is also quite debatable. If the Qur'an is so perfect, then what about this? What was man created from --blood, clay, dust, or nothing? "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2). "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59). "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35). "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4). Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an? "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256). "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5). Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods? Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116 "The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153), and more, http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/islam/contradictions-quran.
Kareem: One at a time, my friend, you obviously allow no room for discussions. Of course, a website bashing Islam.
Matt: That is not so. We have been discussing here for a long time. Jamil, I must confess. It is my website. It is what I have researched and written myself. You see, I have done the research on the Qur'an and the Bible.
Kareem: I find that inspiring
Matt: This is what I have written on Islam: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/islam. This is what I have written on the Bible: http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible
Kareem: But in that case you ought to sit with a Muslim who has also done his research on the Bible.
Matt: I would be glad to.
Kareem: Not with a computer scientist like me but I must add, that up until this point I have not once pointed out the flaws in the bible. I tried not to go there, simply because it becomes a tit for tat.
Kareem: Your book says this, and mine says that and a whole night is spent unconstructively.
Matt: Correct. That is why I have had to study the issues and the facts concerning the Bible and its reliability. It is reliable, 99.5% textually pure in the New Testament, written by eyewitnesses of Jesus life.
Kareem: Debatable I would say
Matt: Facts speak the truth, right?
Kareem: But right now I am nearly running late for my prayers
Matt: I understand.
Kareem: If you wish you can wait about half an hour while I run down the mosque and back or we can carry this on another time.
Matt: I appreciate that, but to be honest, my wife has returned home and I have been on the computer with you for a long time.
Kareem: I have yet to meet a Christian who displays his sincerity like you have.
Matt: Thank you.
Matt: And thank you for not being insulting as some Muslims have been. I hope I have not insulted or offended you in my sinfulness.
Matt: Good night.
Kareem: We have been commanded in the Qur'an to invite with beautiful words and wisdom.
Matt: I believe truth is found in Jesus.
Kareem: Can i have your e-mail address?
Matt: He said He was the truth.
Matt: [email protected]
Kareem: I believe in Jesus
Matt: Good night.
Kareem: I hope so. You too. Good night.
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