Chat text from Matt Slick Google hangout discussion on Calvinism, 2-17-2017

by Matt Slick
2/17/2017

Following notes from the text between the different participants on the Google hang out that happened on February 17, 2017, at 7pm. In that hang out, I fielded questions from non-reformed people on the topic of Calvinism. The reason for that discussion was due to the strong anti-Calvinist mentality that is on some areas of Facebook, in particular the Facebook page, "Calvinism theology versus the rest of Christianity."  On that particular Facebook page (among others on FB) there are those who are strongly antagonistic to reformed theology. They frequently misrepresent it, say that it is demonic, say Calvinists are not Christians, accuse Calvinists of dishonesty, and are generally condemning.  So, I thought that I would offer them the opportunity to hear both sides via a live discussion and fire their toughest questions at me. So, I let people know About the hangout on that Facebook page and, to the best of my knowledge, not a single of the strong anti-Calvinists showed up. 

I find it interesting that they are so rabidly against the doctrines of God's grace and when an opportunity to have a polite conversation occurs with someone who can defend that position, they prefer not to be present.  Oh well, I was not surprised. Nevertheless, following is the text chat that occurred in that discussion that you can view here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILuR6Mauaak

Finally, my goal in doing the hangout was not to convert anyone to reformed theology. Instead, it was to stop the strong disunity that occurs over this discussion. My hope was that by hearing the other side of the argument and being able to ask difficult questions, that people might be less inclined to be so judgmental.

-----------------



Christopher Samuel
7:00 PM
I am not a Calvinist sir

Josiah Boda
7:00 PM
I am not a Calvinist
Luis De Jesus joined group chat.

Charlie Spine
7:01 PM
What is CARM's position on Calvinism? https://carm.org/carm-calvinism

Christopher Samuel
7:02 PM
I am interested in your tough questions Matt

Charlie Spine
7:02 PM
CARM's Statement of Faith …A Statement of Faith is necessary to declare what is affirmed and denied. The more assaults there are against the Christian faith, the more precise we need to be. … Read More: https://carm.org/statement-faith

Josiah Boda
7:03 PM
How would you respond to 2 Peter 3:9?
Yes

Charlie Spine
7:04 PM
I am reformed in "FLAVOR" regarding my faith. Just sayin.

Matt Slick
7:04 PM
2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Matt Slick
7:05 PM
"And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven," (Mark 4:11-12).
Leaving Mormonism For Christ joined group chat.

Charlie Spine
7:06 PM
Fascinating verse

Matt Slick
7:06 PM
"Just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day,'" (Rom. 11:8).

Matt Slick
7:07 PM
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
--
"And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false," (2 Thess. 2:11).

Alex
7:09 PM
Josiah

Matt Slick
7:10 PM
Romans 5:18, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
--
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Charlie Spine
7:12 PM
αρα ουν ως δι ενος παραπτωματος εις παντας ανθρωπους εις κατακριμα ουτως και δι ενος δικαιωματος εις παντας ανθρωπους εις δικαιωσιν ζωης

Matt Slick
7:14 PM
John 6:37–39, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

Josiah Boda
7:14 PM
Would they have added the "free gift" phrase because of verse 12?

Matt Slick
7:15 PM
John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;"
--
John 17:20, "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;"
--
John 6:37–40, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”"
--
1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

Christopher Samuel
7:17 PM
Paul has been talking about Jews and gentiles in Romans for 5 chapters. All means all nationalities not some group of people God chose.

Josiah Boda
7:18 PM
So the "all" in that 1 Cor. verse switched meanings in the same verse?
Yes. Died to Christ

Christopher Samuel
7:18 PM
No

Charlie Spine
7:18 PM
Yes

Matt Slick
7:18 PM
"Now if we have died with Christ..." (Rom. 6:8); "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world..." (Col. 2:20); "For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3); "It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him" (2 Tim. 2:11)
--
Romans 6:6, "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;"
--
Romans 6:8, "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,"
--
1 Corinthians 15:45, "So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
--

Josiah Boda
7:22 PM
Yes

Alex
7:22 PM
It sure would be great if some of you non Calvinists could speak out loud :)

Matt Slick
7:22 PM
2 Corinthians 5:14, "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;"
--
A. So, therefore, as through one offense, into all men into condemnation,
B. so, also, through one righteous deed, into all men into justification of life.

James Cane
7:26 PM
What about Romans 5:17? Doesn't paul mention those who receive the abundance of grace?

Alex
7:26 PM
Actual result.

Matt Slick
7:27 PM
Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
--
Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

Christopher Samuel
7:34 PM
What is the difference between the way that God elected Israel in the Old Testament and the way that Calvinist believe that God elects in the New Testament? In the Old Testament although the descendants of Abraham were elect; they did not all go to heaven. In fact the majority of them probably went to hell if the tone of the Old Testament is to be taken at face value.

Matt Slick
7:35 PM
Acts 9:15, "But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;"

Christopher Fisher
7:35 PM
What is your understanding of impassibility? Do you believe it? What kind of change in God would falsify impassibility?
No rush, just queuing up.

James Cane
7:37 PM
I'll queue up after Christopher and unmute my mic to ask my question if that's okay

Charlie Spine
7:38 PM
https://carm.org/dictionary-impassibility

Alex
7:38 PM
You can talk, James.

Charlie Spine
7:38 PM
https://carm.org/does-god-have-emotions

Alex
7:38 PM
James has one

James Cane
7:39 PM
I have one

Christopher Fisher
7:39 PM
theoretically, what kind of change in God would falsify impassibility if the change was found in the Bible? I'm asking if your view is falsifiable.

Alex
7:40 PM
Please leave the call if you are just here to listen. You can listen here: https://youtu.be/ILuR6Mauaak
This is a problem of equal vs unequal ultimacy
God only passively intervenes to damn people whereas he actively intervenes to justify the elect.

Matt Slick
7:44 PM
when it comes to Adam's sin, how does it make sense to say he is morally responsible for his sin when the act of his sin is similar with the way God brings about conversion

Josiah Boda
7:45 PM
Just queuing a question up, You mentioned that regeneration precedes faith. Could you elaborate more on that and are there some verses too? Thanks

Charlie Spine
7:46 PM
https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

Alex
7:47 PM
James, your question should be geared more towards those who affirm equal ultimacy.
John 1:12-13But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were [a]born, not of [b]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Charlie Spine
7:48 PM
13 who were born , not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13

Christopher Fisher
7:49 PM
Still looking for an answer here if you need to feel dead space:
theoretically, what kind of change in God would falsify impassibility if the change was found in the Bible? I'm asking if your view is falsifiable.

Christopher Samuel
7:49 PM
I have a follow up to my question

Christopher Fisher
7:50 PM
fill* sorry
use your own definitions... thanks
are those descriptions literal? or are they some sort of framing device?

Alex
7:54 PM
Ask one Matt

Christopher Samuel
7:55 PM
I have a follow up to my first question

Alex
7:55 PM
1 = Yes
2 = No

Josiah Boda
7:55 PM
Sure

James Cane
7:55 PM
1

Matt Slick
7:55 PM
1 John 3:4
Romans 6:23
Genesis 2:17
Isaiah 59:2
Ezekiel 18:4
Galatians 4:4
1 Pet. 2:22
Matt. 6:12 - debt
Luke 11:4 - sins
Coma Man

This portion was added after the discussion to provide the listener/reader the argument for review.

A man is on his way to the bank to pay his mortgage. On the way he gets in a car accident and ends up in the hospital for a month in a coma. A philanthropist hears about the man's condition and decides to pay off the entire mortgage of this man. He goes to the bank, makes the arrangements, write a check, and the mortgages now paid. So we ask these questions, "Is the mortgage paid?"  Yes.  "Is the man's debt canceled?"  Yes.  "Can the man be held responsible for the debt that has been canceled?"  No.
    The man wakes up from his, and has a miraculous recovery. He gets in his car and hurries to the bank to pay his mortgage because he believes he's late. He hands the check to the teller the teller tells in the debt has been paid. There is no way the bank can receive payment for debt is canceled.
    Likewise, Jesus canceled our sin debt at the cross Colossians 2:14. Therefore a person cannot be held responsible for a sin debt that does not exist. If God were to punish a person for that sin debt that is canceled, then it would be that God was unrighteous.

Christopher Samuel
8:00 PM
Yes

Matt Slick
8:00 PM
Yes

Alex
8:00 PM
1

Josiah Boda
8:00 PM
1

Matt Slick
8:00 PM
yes

Alex
8:00 PM
1

Christopher Samuel
8:00 PM
Yes
No

Alex
8:00 PM
2

Matt Slick
8:00 PM
no

Josiah Boda
8:00 PM
2

Matt Slick
8:01 PM
John 19:30
tetelestai
"It is finished"
Colossians 2:13, "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,"

Christopher Samuel
8:02 PM
all

Matt Slick
8:02 PM
ALL

Josiah Boda
8:02 PM
All

Alex
8:02 PM
All

Matt Slick
8:02 PM
Colossians 2:14, "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Charlie Spine
8:03 PM
Greek: χειρόγραφον cheirógraphon

Matt Slick
8:03 PM
5498. χειρόγραφον cheirógraphon; gen. cheirográphou, neut. noun from cheír (5495), hand, and gráphō (1125), to write. Handwriting, record of debt, a note written by the hand which makes one obligated to fulfill what is written (Col. 2:14 [cf. Eph. 2:15]).
χειρόγραφον, ου n
record of debts: 33.40

Christopher Samuel
8:04 PM
nailed to the cross

Alex
8:04 PM
Cross

Josiah Boda
8:04 PM
nailed to the cross

Alex
8:04 PM
1

Christopher Samuel
8:04 PM
yes

Josiah Boda
8:04 PM
1

James Cane left group chat.

Alex
8:04 PM
2

Christopher Samuel
8:04 PM
2

Marshal Atkinson
8:05 PM
What ensures the cheirographon is the sin debt and not the Old Testament Law?

Alex
8:05 PM
2

Christopher Samuel
8:06 PM
I'm cool with limited atonement :)
I still have my follow up question

Charlie Spine
8:07 PM
the one believing or the believing ones...indeed

Matt Slick
8:07 PM
Colossians 2:13–14, "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Christopher Fisher
8:08 PM
The OT concept of of eschatology would be that God would return and set up a kingdom, the gentiles would deliver tribute to the Kingdom of God. The Messiah is to come for Israel, but the Gentiles have a place that is inferior.
In this sense, Jesus came to Israel. And then Israel rejects Jesus, the Gentiles are brought in as equals.

Matt Slick
8:10 PM
Romans 4:15, "for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation."

Christopher Fisher
8:10 PM
Rom_3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Also...

Charlie Spine
8:11 PM
KJV: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Matt Slick
8:11 PM
Romans 7:4, "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God."
--
Romans 7:1–4, "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God."

Christopher Samuel
8:14 PM
I have no response. But may I ask my follow up question?

Marshal Atkinson
8:14 PM
I feel like the verses you quoted proved Col 2 is talking about the law

Charlie Spine
8:16 PM
https://carm.org/federal-headship
https://carm.org/adam-our-federal-head

Christopher Samuel
8:16 PM

Matt Slick
Can ask my follow up?

Alex
8:17 PM
Please leave the call if you are not going to be interacting. You can watch on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILuR6Mauaak&feature=youtu.be

Christopher Fisher
8:17 PM
Romans is in the context of national election to a special people in the Kingdom of God. The idea is that the righteous would inhabit the Kingdom in which God would reign living with man (Rev 21:3). The question Paul is answering is how Gentiles can be equal to Jews in spite of strong OT writings to the contrary. The idea is not a salvation to heaven, there is a place for those not elect in this restored Earth. They bring tribute.

Christopher Samuel
8:18 PM
Will I be allowed to ask my follow up?

Christopher Fisher
8:18 PM
Paul is talking about Jewish eschatology .
Nope.

Charlie Spine
8:19 PM
Earthly Class

Christopher Fisher
8:19 PM
ok...
A New Heaven and a New Earth: Reclaiming Biblical Eschatology
J. Richard Middleton

Alex
8:19 PM
Christopher, is it possible that you can talk out loud? The conversation is confusing for those on Youtube who do not have access to this chat.

Josiah Boda
8:21 PM
Do Arminians usually interpret Col.2 by saying that that verse is about how Jesus has nailed every ones" transgressions to the cross and if they do not respond to Christ's death then God does not apply it to them? Just curious what they say.

Riley Franklin joined group chat.

Charlie Spine
8:22 PM
Calvinism Arminianism comparison grid
https://carm.org/calvinism-arminianism-comparison-grid

Alex
8:22 PM
Someone on youtube said: the bigger issue here is how we can be held morally responsible if we cannot help but to do X or do not X

Alex muted
Riley Franklin.

Christopher Samuel
8:22 PM
can I ask on air

Alex
8:22 PM
Chris first
but there is fight on youtube chat about this
the moral responsibility part
1

Christopher Fisher
8:23 PM
Yeah

Josiah Boda
8:23 PM
1

Marshal Atkinson
8:23 PM
1

Charlie Spine
8:23 PM
I do

Riley Franklin
8:23 PM
1

Christopher Samuel left group chat.

Matt Slick
8:24 PM
2 Samuel 24:1, "Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”"

Christopher Fisher
8:25 PM
satan is not a character in the OT, in the parallel text. It is an agent of God.
The adversary.

Matt Slick
8:25 PM
1 Chronicles 21:1, "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel."

Christopher Fisher
8:25 PM
satan is not a proper noun.
God is mad at Israel, looking for a reason to punish them, and tempts David.
nope... not the devil. Satan is found in Baalam as well. As an agent of God.

Riley Franklin
8:27 PM
no

Matt Slick
8:27 PM
2 Samuel 24:10, "Now David’s heart troubled him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.”"

Josiah Boda
8:27 PM
I believe the verses yes. Could David have chosen to not count and number Israel?

Alex
8:27 PM
1

Riley Franklin
8:27 PM
no

Matt Slick
8:28 PM
Acts 4:27–28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Riley Franklin
8:28 PM
This is the doctrine of concurrence
Leaving Mormonism For Christ
8:28 PM
yes

Matt Slick
8:28 PM
Acts 2:22, "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—"
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Alex
8:30 PM
Riley, do you now see how God predestined people to sin?

Riley Franklin
8:31 PM
Co-existing realities-paradoxical, not contradictory

Alex
8:31 PM
YOUTUBE: Imagine this, I create a race of people who are determined to do X, is it right in any sense for me to punish them?

Riley Franklin
8:31 PM
Amen
We agree

Charlie Spine
8:31 PM
Matt has a good article about this: "Did God create sin?" https://carm.org/did-god-create-sin

Alex
8:31 PM
Riley, I adjusted your microphone. You can speak out loud whenever you would like.

Christopher Fisher
8:32 PM
Yeah, like a cop and entrap a pedophile. Or God might trick an enemy army to kill themselves. Or God might "whistle" for Assyrian to come and punish Israel, and then punish them for their wickedness. It is using your enemy against themselves. Don't see a moral issue here. And it doesn't mean no free will.
Isa_7:18 In that day the LORD will whistle for the fly that is at the end of the streams of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.

Riley Franklin
8:33 PM
Concurrence

Christopher Fisher
8:33 PM
Isa 5:25 Therefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against his people, and he stretched out his hand against them and struck them, and the mountains quaked; and their corpses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger has not turned away, and his hand is stretched out still.
Isa 5:26 He will raise a signal for nations far away, and whistle for them from the ends of the earth; and behold, quickly, speedily they come!

Alex
8:33 PM
I've heard it way too much!

Charlie Spine
8:35 PM
There are godly, Christian theologians on both sides of these five points, some agreeing and some disagreeing with them. But we are to remain humble and tolerant of those within Christianity who don't agree with us on the issues of non-essentials (Rom. 14:1-12). The essentials of the faith (the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the virgin birth, justification by faith alone, Jesus' physical resurrection, etc.) are not listed in these five points. Therefore, Christians are free to affirm or deny these teachings and still remain within the Christian faith...EXCERPTED FROM: https://carm.org/carm-calvinism

Matt Slick
8:35 PM
John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Alex
8:36 PM
Wow, someone on youtube said - "appealing to scripture doesn't change the fact that it feels morally repulsive to punish my creation for doing something I caused them to do"

Riley Franklin
8:36 PM

Charlie Spine, I, a Calvinist, agree with you.

Charlie Spine
8:36 PM
ty.  That was an excerpt from Matt's website, Riley

Christopher Fisher
8:37 PM
cutting out... free will is the ability to decide... not necessarily carry out the acts... like I have the free will to want to fly... but gravity prohibits
Matt Slick

Charlie Spine
8:38 PM
your nature prohibits you IMHO

Alex
8:38 PM
"​anyone in the world would say it's unjust for me to create beings and punish them for what I made them do"

Matt Slick
8:38 PM
Is free will the ability to choose between opposing moral options and also includes the ability to accomplish either of those moral options?

Christopher Fisher
8:38 PM
nope...
free will is the ability to decide what you want, not necessarily with the ability to accomplish it.

Josiah Boda
8:39 PM
I just say free will is that one has the ability to choose option A and at the same time, has the ability to not choose option A

Christopher Fisher
8:40 PM
like, if someone invented nanorobots that take control of all people's bodies and force them to kill people... it is not like their free will is violated... they just have physical constraints.
same... God can decide to want alternatives...

Alex
8:40 PM
He has the ability to do what is consistent with His nature.
oops
sorry

Christopher Fisher
8:41 PM
same... God can decide to want alternatives...

Josiah Boda
8:41 PM
Humans do not have the ability to choose to come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit is active in the life the the humans.
of*

Matt Slick
8:42 PM
free will is the ability to decide what you want, not necessarily with the ability to accomplish it.
Free will is the ability to make moral choices consistent with your nature.
Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ because they are enslaved to sin (Rom. 6:14-20), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), are dead in their sins (Eph. 2:1), are at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), and can do no good (Rom. 3:10-12). They have free will to choose, but their sinful free will will choose sin. Therefore, they will freely choose to do what is contrary to God.
--
It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), and cannot come to God on his own (John 6:44), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20; John 8:34), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), and is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15).

Charlie Spine
8:46 PM
Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

Alex
8:46 PM
Amen

Matt Slick
8:46 PM
It is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), grants us repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-25), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6:44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6:65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), and he does all of this according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).

Charlie Spine
8:47 PM
Rom. 9:16, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

Alex
8:48 PM
AMEN

Matt Slick
8:49 PM
Proverbs 16:4, "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil."

Riley Franklin
8:49 PM
Matt-add Acts 5:31 and 11.18 to the granting of repentance.

Matt Slick
8:50 PM
Romans 9:22–23, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,"

Charlie Spine
8:50 PM
https://carm.org/questions/about-god/why-does-god-create-people-he-knows-will-go-hell

Riley Franklin
8:51 PM
Rom.9 is one of the most avoided chapters in the Bible.

Matt Slick
8:51 PM
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today," (Deut. 2:30).
--
"For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord had commanded Moses," (Joshua 11:20).
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"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord God. "Therefore, repent and live," (Ezekiel 18:32).
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"Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked . . . (Ezekiel 33:11).
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"And it shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you. . ." (Deut. 28:63).
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"If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death," (1 Sam. 2:25).
--
The words "desired" here is the same Hebrew word, "chaphets," used in Ezekiel 18:32 and 33:11 ("pleasure") above. It means "to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with. It was the sons of Eli who would not listen to their father.
--
Why? Because the Lord desired to put them to death. In other words, they would not listen because God desired to put them to death.

Marshal Atkinson
8:57 PM
Then what made Adam choose to sin?

Alex
8:57 PM
Moral free agent ^

Matt Slick
8:58 PM
Aseity

Riley Franklin
8:59 PM
He's self-existent

Alex
8:59 PM
I adjusted your mic, Riley.  We can hear you better now

Riley Franklin
9:00 PM
Thank you,
Alex.

Charlie Spine
9:01 PM
https://carm.org/questions-free-will
https://carm.org/questions-libertarian-free-will
https://carm.org/questions-compatibilist-free-will
All great articles on this topic

Marshal Atkinson
9:02 PM
But if we can only choose according to our nature, he was good

Christopher Fisher
9:02 PM
Can you go over the Biblical concept of Aseity. What verses talk about it? How do we know the authors of the Bible believed it?

Charlie Spine
9:03 PM
God created the conditions where free will creatures would be able to make a choice between obedience and disobedience to God. This condition existed when God created an angel called Lucifer who was without sin yet, freely chose to sin by rebelling against God. This is the origin of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:13-15).

Matt Slick
9:03 PM
Prevenient grace
Leaving Mormonism For Christ left group chat.

Marshal Atkinson
9:04 PM
Does your view of Adam violate God's Aseity?

Charlie Spine
9:05 PM
Likewise, Adam and Eve, having been made by God without sin, listened to the devil and freely chose to sin against God (Gen. 3:1-6). It was then through Adam in particular that sin entered the world (Romans 5:12).

Christopher Fisher
9:05 PM
Can you go over the Biblical concept of Aseity. What verses talk about it? How do we know the authors of the Bible believed it? Asiety is often linked to pure actuality, no potentiality. Where is that in the Bible?

Charlie Spine
9:07 PM
Christopher, see: What is the aseity of God?
https://carm.org/what-is-the-aseity-of-god

Christopher Fisher
9:11 PM
Very sketchy prooftexting. It is not taken seriously by Biblical Scholarship. Here is Rabbi Sacks on I AM :
The fifth and most profound difference lies in the way the two traditions understood the key phrase in which God identifies himself to Moses at the burning bush. ‘Who are you?’ asks Moses. God replies, cryptically, Ehyeh asher ehyeh. This was translated into Greek as ego eimi ho on, and into as ego sum qui sum, meaning ‘I am who I am’, or ‘I am he who is’. The early and medieval Christian theologians all understood the phrase to be speaking about ontology, the metaphysical nature of God’s existence. It meant that he was ‘Being-itself, timeless, immutable, incorporeal, understood as the subsisting act of all existing’. Augustine defines God as that which does not change and cannot change. Aquinas, continuing the same tradition, reads the Exodus formula as saying that God is ‘true being, that is being that is eternal, immutable, simple, self-sufficient, and the cause and principal of every creature’. 8 But this is the God of Aristotle and the philosophers, not the God of Abraham and the prophets. Ehyeh asher ehyeh means none of these things. It means ‘I will be what, where, or how I will be’. The essential element of the phrase is the dimension omitted by all the early Christian translations, namely the future tense. God is defining himself as the Lord of history who is about to intervene in an unprecedented way to liberate a group of slaves from the mightiest empire of the ancient world and lead them on a journey towards liberty.
Sacks, Jonathan. The Great Partnership: Science, Religion, and the Search for Meaning (pp. 64-65). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Alex
9:11 PM
Wow, I just got back and hear this. Beautiful.
AMEN

Riley Franklin
9:13 PM
Amen to your testimony. The day this Jesus-mocker, Christian-hating man was given converted, I was a passive recipient. I responded to no RSVP.I have [nothing] to do with it.

Matt Slick
9:13 PM
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
whoever believes
pas ho pisteuon

Alex
9:14 PM
All the believing one

Matt Slick
9:14 PM
all the belieivng one
autos
hos

Alex
9:15 PM
calvinistcorner has a great page about that :)

Matt Slick
9:16 PM
https://carm.org/words-mean-what-they-mean-in-context-world
The word world, has at least five different meanings in the New Testament: Every Individual: Acts 17:31; Romans 3:6; 1 John 2:2; Limited Area: Acts 11:28; Romans 1:8; Colossians 1:6; All Nations: Matthew 26:13; John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Revelation 3:10; 16:14. Secular Realm: Matt. 5:14; 18:7; John 1:10; 15:18; Rom. 12:2; Gal. 6:14; 1 Tim. 1:15; James 1:27; 1 Pet. 1:9; 1 John 2:15; The Earth: Luke 12:30; John 1:10; Acts 17:24; Ephesians 1:11; first Timothy 1:15; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 3:6

Alex
9:16 PM
Please define secular realm.
So, the unbelieving part of the world?
I meant... does secular realm mean the unbelieving part of humanity?
1
I love it. I was hoping for some hardcore anti Calvinists lol

Matt Slick
9:22 PM
αἱρετικός, ή, όν: (derivative of αἵρεσιςc ‘division,’ 63.27) pertaining to causing divisions—‘divisive, one who causes divisions.’ αἱρετικὸν ἄνθρωπον μετὰ μίαν καὶ δευτέραν νουθεσίαν παραιτοῦ ‘reject a person who causes divisions after at least two warnings’ (literally ‘… after a first and second warning’) or ‘give at least two warnings to the person who causes divisions, and then have nothing more to do with him’ Tt 3:10.
Louw, Johannes P., and Eugene Albert Nida. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains. New York: United Bible Societies, 1996.

Alex
9:25 PM
notice how the Calvinists never tells them they are not Christians but non Calvinists say that Calvinists aren't saved all the time.

Charlie Spine
9:25 PM
Maybe nicer names now? :)

Alex
9:26 PM
Amen
This was great. Maybe next time we will have some less shy ones.

Charlie Spine
9:27 PM
Enjoyed this topic

Riley Franklin
9:27 PM
Bless you for your insight, Matt. When I learned of Reformed Theology, I was so freed up to give the Lord the glory.

Josiah Boda
9:28 PM
Thanks for the good discussion. It was very educational. Thanks. I would listen in to more of these. Do some more. Thanks.

Charlie Spine
9:28 PM
Kent is great on Origins and Creation, but light on theology in my humble opinion
Luis De Jesus left group chat.

Matt Slick
9:30 PM

Alex, can you unmute everyone?

Charlie Spine
9:30 PM
Calvinism Arminianism comparison grid
https://carm.org/calvinism-arminianism-comparison-grid

Alex
9:31 PM
Love riley
Clearly knows what he's talking about.

Charlie Spine
9:31 PM
Glad Riley is here tonight

Charlie Spine
9:33 PM
I like keeping my mouth closed, just sayin
 

 
 

About The Author

Matt Slick is the President and Founder of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.