Matt Slick vs Louis Ruggiero on Difficult Questions Lou Rugg can’t answer
Dialogue on Paltalk

Discussion occurred 12-17-13

(0:00) Louis Ruggiero

Okay, I’m going to explain to you guys why I’ve been refuting Calvinism or trying to refute Calvinism for the past ten years. First of all, reformed theology teaches double predestination. I don’t believe in double predestination. John Calvin taught that “By predestination, we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or death” {Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Section 5}. That’s what John Calvin wrote. I don’t believe that. I don’t believe it is biblical at all. Number two, a holy God does not author or decree sin. That to me is a fundamental falsehood. That’s the second reason why I despise Calvinism. John Calvin taught “…creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” {Institutes, Book 1, Chapter 16, Section 3}. This would include sin. I don’t believe that God authors or decrees sin, but Calvinists believe that. Also, is reformed theology correct? Does sin have a holy purpose as Calvinists would claim? If Calvinists believe that sin has a holy purpose, who are they to say that sin is evil? Maybe they should say that sin is good. After all, God has a purpose for it and according to them it must be a good purpose. When Calvinists say that sin is evil while believing that God uses it for a good purpose, doesn’t that mean that maybe the Calvinists are ungodly? They really should be saying that sin is good because God uses it for good. Third reason, Calvinism defies biblical logic and proclaims a double-minded God with a split personality. For example, God said “thou shalt not kill” but God decreed man to kill. Why would God decree a man to do what he commanded them not to do? This is a logical fallacy. In Mark 3:25, Jesus said if a house be divided against itself that house cannot stand and Calvinism teaches a God that’s divided against himself. Example number two, in Acts 17:30 God commands all men everywhere to repent, but Calvinism teaches that man can’t repent unless God regenerates them first. So why is God commanding men to do something he is unable to do? Why do Calvinists approach a sinner, imploring them to repent if they are unable to repent? Why do Calvinists rebuke a sinner for sinning if God is the one who decreed them to sin in the first place? Shouldn’t they be rebuking God, after all the sinner wouldn’t have sinned unless God decreed it in the first place? It’s not the sinner’s fault. It’s God’s fault. According to Calvinism, once a man is regenerated he can’t help but repent. So why is God making it a command at all if a person can’t help but repent once he’s regenerated? Doesn’t that sound silly? Example number three, God’s justice is non-existent in Calvinism. According to Calvinism, God decrees man to sin and God decrees a man to do that which is good. For example, God takes his non-elect, decrees them to sin, doesn’t regenerate them so they can repent, and then punishes them for the sin that He decreed that they wouldn’t have committed unless he didn’t decree it in the first place. God takes His elect, decrees them to do good, regenerates them, and then rewards them for the good they wouldn’t have done unless He decreed them to do it in the first place. Both the non-elect and the elect act solely within God’s decrees. Where’s the justice? Where’s the accountability? And finally, Calvinism proclaims a God who hates his enemies, meanwhile, God commands us to love our enemies. According to Calvinism, God isn’t willing to do what he commands his creation to do. To me, that’s a hypocritical God. Those are four of the main reasons why I despise Calvinism. There are more but those are the four main ones. Keeping that in mind, I’m going to let Matt have at me and ask me some of those tough questions. So, Matt Slick, the mic is yours, you’re up.

(4:36) Matt Slick

Alright, thank you. Can you guys hear me ok? Lou, can you hear me alright? Ok. Lou, I’d be interested, apparently you read that, I’d be interested if you’d be willing to send me that, and then I could respond to it. No offense meant to you but I don’t think you understand a lot of reformed theology. I don’t think you understand decretive will, prescriptive will, permissive will, what ordination means and I think you are confused, no disrespect meant, because you don’t understand how we define those things. So I think it would be a good service to you and to others if you were to send me that and I could respond to that with some more refined responses. Okay? I don’t know if you want to do that or not but you can and the address would be here, and then maybe I can put the response up on my website, calvinistcorner.com. Alright, so I wrote some questions up and I figured I’d write them up so I could paste them. [Oh okay, we’ll have someone transcribe it and I’ll just respond to it, no big deal]. So there are lots of questions I can ask, and I do appreciate you finally being willing to at least address some of the difficult questions. So, let me ask you this. I’ll paste it and read it so people can hear with the recording as well. Do you agree or deny that God makes the will, the mind, the body, etc., and puts people in a designated place, time, and culture with particular parents? If not, why not. How is God no predestining people to salvation or damnation by His sovereign arrangement of all factors that are under his control? Go ahead.

(6:46) Louis Ruggiero:

Well first of all, of course God puts them in a designated place. I’ll get the verse for you while you’re asking me your second question. Could you come up to the mic and repeat the second portion of your question? It said if you agree then how is God not predestining people? Well, God is not predestining people to one or the other. God just happens to know the free will decisions that people are going to make before predestining them to salvation or condemnation. He just happens to know because He is omniscient [of] all of man’s free will decisions that they’re going to make based on where God placed them. Ok, so Matt the mic is yours, you’re up.

(7:40) Matt Slick

Lou, you’re not answering the question. Saying that He simply knows what free will choice they’re going to make is problematic because it means that God is then contingent upon the choices of individuals. There’s the doctrine of God’s aseity. That means He is independent, He’s non-contingent, He is self-sufficient and as such, He has no dependency on anything or anyone else. If you were to say that God knows what their free will choices are going to be, then He predestines accordingly, then what you’re saying is that His choices are contingent upon the so-called free will choices of man, and that violates the doctrine of God’s aseity. Now the issue is, that if God knows exactly what the free will choices of man, {LAG} then He is predestining them since He knows exactly what those free will choices will be under any circumstances that He has sovereignly arranged. Go ahead.

(8:56) Louis Ruggiero:

He’s predestining them based on their free will choices. By the way here’s the passage, Acts 17:26-27, And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: So God places every single person on the planet close enough so that they can seek after him. Ok, now I believe in predestination, but man is predestined based on what God foreknows within his very being. He doesn’t need to look down the corridors of time to find out what man is going to do. Man is predestined based on God’s foreknowledge of what He knows their free will decisions are going to be before they even make them. God knows beforehand whether they will be saved or not saved before their even born because He’s omniscient, but He’s not predestining them. He basically knows because he foreknows their free will decisions before they even make them. That’s how God predestines. Matt Slick you’re up.

(10:38) Matt Slick:

Well, that’s still problematic. I’m glad you are moving towards orthodoxy in affirming the doctrine of predestination. But you don’t understand. What you’re doing is saying that God’s decision to save someone is based upon a quality, an ability, or choice of an individual. This means that God’s choices are contingent upon man’s choices. This is what they are going to do and then He saves them based on what they’re going to do. This violates His independence which has existed since eternity past. You’re saying that, within that, he looked down to corridor of time. Now I know you said that He didn’t, but the problem is that He would have to know all things in all situations, even if you want to work with what you’re saying, it’s still problematic because there are so-to-speak an infinite number of potential existences that God could have brought into existence into reality. He chose the one He decided, and therefore whatever free will choices anyone’s going to make in any situation God has brought into actuality by creating the universe the way He did. So He is, therefore, predestining them, absolutely. Now along the questions of free will, I think what I’ll do is ask a question about that. I’ll type this in here, paste it in here. Why does one person’s free will move him to believe, but another person’s free will does not after God’s reproving occurs? Why does one person’s free will choose God and another does not. Why is it, you say they are free will choices, why is it one person believes and another person does not. You say it’s because of their free will, then you’re not answering the question. What I was to have you do is answer specifically what is it about one individual as compared to another individual because the one individual received God and another one does not, when it is God who makes their free wills. Can you answer that? Go ahead.

(13:48) Louis Ruggiero:

First of all, I have to go back and answer your other question. “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. 1 Peter 1:2 answers your previous question. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. So God elects those based on His foreknowledge. God doesn’t need to look down the corridors of time. God knows within His very being all free will decisions of man before he makes them. Galatians 6:5 says this “For every man shall bear his own burden.” Okay, so I wanted to go back and answer your previous question, that we are elect based on God’s foreknowledge. Now your other question, why does one person’s free will move him to believe but another person’s free will does not after God’s reproving occurs? We go back to John 16:8, were it the Holy Spirit who reproves the world of sin so that when we hear the gospel message it’s the Holy Spirit who’s convicting the sinner. So now does a sinner turn at God’s reproof as Proverbs 1:23 teaches? Where Proverbs 1:23 says “Turn you at my reproof.” What does it mean to turn at God’s reproof? To turn at God’s reproof means to repent. We can’t turn at God’s reproof unless he’s reproving first. God reproves. God commands men to turn at his reproof, and where that man turns at god’s reproof or not is based on where or not he chooses to fear the Lord. Now, what’s the fear of the Lord? Proverbs 8:13 teaches that the fear of the Lord is to hate evil, pride, arrogancy and the forward mouth do I hate.” So when God’s reproving work occurs God is enabling the individual to choose to fear the Lord or not. God has instilled in each person a conscience. So when God’s working on our conscience, He’s calling on us to repent. Do we fear the Lord? Do we hate evil? Are we prideful? If we’re prideful or we embrace evil or not humble, we’re not going to turn at God’s reproof. If we are humble, we hate evil, and God is giving us that choice through his reproving work, we’re going to choose the fear of the Lord. And if you choose to fear the Lord, this is what happens when a person fears the Lord. Psalm 25:12-14 says this, “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease, and his seed shall inherit the earth. The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.” Now the covenant is Christ. When you turn to Acts 13:26, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.” So the word of salvation is sent is to all those who choose to fear God, because only the God-fearer is going to accept the gospel message., because the God-fearer hates his sin and is humble. The non-God-fearer embraces his sin and is prideful. So the non-God-fearer is going to reject and the God-fearer based on the fact that he’s humble and he hates his sin and God’s enabling him to do that through his reproving work and the fact that man has a conscience, that enables man to choose where or not to repent or turn at God’s reproof. So I hope I answered your other question. Matt Slick, you’re up.

(17:09) Matt Slick:

Well, the problem is that we’re not focusing. You’re introducing all kinds of things. You introduced several scriptures and my response will be five minutes and then your response will be 10 minutes. And that’s a problem. I specifically asked a question which I’ll post in here. First of all, Proverbs 8:13, it doesn’t say people were enabled to hate evil by being reproved or by being enlightened or anything. It just says the fear of the Lord is to hate evil. Nothing in the text designates anything other than that. As far as Proverbs 1:23 goes, this is a personification of wisdom. It’s not a doctrinal statement about the character and ability of the saved or unsaved. Proverbs is a collection of wisdom statements and the subsequent responsibility that people have to follow God’s truth. But don’t make the mistake of thinking that a command of God automatically means that a person is able to accomplish it. Now you brought that up and I want to show you that this principle, that you reject, is actually scripture. It’s actually biblical. I’ll paste this in and you can take a look at it. See, God often requires what we cannot accomplish. 1 Peter 1:16, God says to be holy because he is holy. But a person cannot be holy in and of himself. We see that God commands men everywhere to repent, Acts 17:30, but it is God who grants repentance 2 Timothy 2:25. We see that God commands people to believe in him yet he opens their hearts to believe, as he did with Lydia in Acts 16:14, he grants that people believe in Philippians 1:29. This is why Romans 9:16 says “it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy” The point is this when you say or imply that God will not require something of someone that their not able to do, well yes He does. He absolutely does. 1 Peter 1:16 proves that that is the case. Be holy for I am holy. No one can be holy. Only God is holy. He gives us the holiness we need through Christ and this is by His decree, not by our will. So your statement is invalid. It’s not biblical and I’ve shown you that. Now you went onto Psalm 25, I forgot what exact verse, but that is a Psalm written by David and he’s already a believer. There’s nothing in there about being enabled in any way to come to believe God by being a person who fears God. It says “who is the man who fears the Lord?” There’s nothing in there that tells us how a person comes to fear the Lord. However, the Bible does tell us that that is the case. He tells us how we do come the fear the Lord. Jeremiah 32:40, “And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.” So we know that because God is the one who puts the fear in their hearts, whenever you quote any verses, those who fear him, we know they fear him because God put the fear of him in them. So my question, and we’re going through a lot of stuff here and this is why I want to focus on one thing at a time. I think you’re making an assumption that is not warranted in any of the verses you’ve cited. You say, or you imply, that a person is enabled to believe by being reproved by being urged, by being commanded, and that is not what the scriptures are teaching. Oh, I remember, foreknowledge. Let me address that real fast. If you do a study on the word know, in the Greek, it is ginosko (γινώσκω) implying that God only knows believers. If you go to Romans 8:29 those whom he foreknew he also predestined, that’s proginosko (προγινώσκω). The ones that are foreknown are also the ones predestinated. We see the pattern in scripture where God says he only knows those that are his. That is the pattern that God has set up. When people are elected by the foreknowledge of God it’s concomitant or similar to this issue of Romans 8:29-30 where God only knows those who are his. He knows them because He called them to Himself as Acts 13:48 says. We’ll get to that. So foreknowledge does not mean looking down the corridors of time or knowing ahead of time because he doesn’t look down the corridors of time, there is no foreknowledge to be had. See, God knows all things instantaneously and eternally. There is no foreknowledge in that sense. He can’t foreknow ahead of time because with God there is no time. There is no looking down the corridor, looking beyond or looking with anything. It’s just simply all knowledge that is consistent and instantaneous with God at all times. Foreknowledge doesn’t mean that He looked in any way shape or form to see what the free will choices of people will be. As I said before, that would make Him contingent. Do a study on the word know, k-n-o-w, as it relates to salvation, you’ll see He only knows believers and those whom he foreknew he also predestined. The foreknown are the predestined ones. So back to this question, can you show me any scripture, I’ll paste this in here, can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God that he is enabled to believe? Now, don’t just assume that is the case, show it to me from scripture, not reading into the text. Go ahead.

(23:11) Louis Ruggiero:

First of all, there were a number of fallacies, Matt, that I need to address before I answer your question. The fear of the Lord is a choice, Proverbs 1:29. “For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD.” It doesn’t say they could not choose the fear of the Lord. It says they did not choose to fear the Lord. There’s a big difference in words here. The fear of the Lord is clearly a choice. Turn you at my reproof. The fear of the Lord is a choice. Okay, that’s clear. Okay. Now let me go to 1 Pet 1:16. God says to be holy because I am holy. We can be holy as God is holy. Do you know how? Christ’s imputed righteousness. When God sees us as Christians he sees Christ’s righteousness within us. He sees Christ’s holiness in us. That’s how we can be holy as God is holy. That’s the only way. Imputed righteousness. Okay. Now how does God put the fear of the Lord in their heart? He teaches the fear of the Lord. The fear of the Lord is taught. Okay. That another thing. I wanted to address that. Also, 2 Timothy 2:25 teaches that God grants repentance? I think it’s in 2 Timothy 2:25. Let me quote the verse. I think he quoted from the ESV which is fine. Read 2 Timothy, chapter 2, Matt. That’s not to everybody. God’s granting them repentance, God’s granting a person to repent, to a person who He has turned over to a reprobate mind. These are people who are teaching falsely and have gone into heresy. God grants them repentance if these people realize what they’ve been doing. God commands repentance. A person who decides and chooses to follow another religion after being shown the truth, God turns over to a reprobate mind. If that person realizes, oh my goodness, what have I done, God’s granting those people repentance. God doesn’t grant everyone repentance. God commands all to repent and the only way you can repent is by God’s reproving work. He says turn you at my reproof. They choose to fear the Lord. If they choose to fear the Lord, they’re going to turn at His reproof. Turning at His reproof means to repent. Turning at God’s reproof means to repent. Ezekiel 33:11 says this, “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Turning from his ways means to repent. Turn ye, turn ye from our evil ways, that’s repentance. Okay. God commands that and God enables that through His reproving work. Now, what was your previous question, Matt, because you made a lot of fallacies and I forgot what your last question was. Can you come up to the mic and repeat it. You’re up.

(26:33) Matt Slick:

Let me see if I can remember what the question was. Oh yeah, here it is. Here you go. Can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God that he is also enabled to believe? See, what you are doing is begging the question. You’re assuming that when a person is reproved they’re enabled to believe. Now, I’m glad that you agree with me, good reformed theology of 1 Peter 1:16 that God commands what people cannot do. We cannot be holy. God imputes it to us. Exactly correct. He also grants that we believe, Philippians 1:29, grants us repentance, 2 Timothy 2:25, etc. So, good reformed theology. You’re coming along. I appreciate that. That’s the question. Now can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God that he is also enabled to believe? Go ahead.

(27:41) Louis Ruggiero:

Matt, first of all, I haven’t agreed with you once. So to say I’m coming along nicely to me is like an insult to my intelligence. I don’t think I’ve agreed with you once in this entire thing. So let me put this up front. Be holy for I am holy. The only way you can be holy as God is by imputed righteousness. That’s number one. Number two, 2 Timothy 2:25, God grants repentance to those who God has given over to a reprobate mind. 2 Timothy chapter two is about false teachers, those who have gone into heresy. God’s not granting repentance to every single human being and enabling all to repent like you’re claiming. So, Matt, you’ve been off-kilter the last half an hour and for you to say I’m coming along nicely and that I’m agreeing with reformed theology, I think everyone in this room is intelligent enough to realize that certainly is not the case. Now can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God he is also enabled to believe? Yeah, right here. Acts 13:26. “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.” God’s message is strictly to the God-fearer. Why? Because Acts 10:34-35 says this, “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” God accepts the God-fearer, and Paul is saying that the gospel message is sent only to the God-fearer. Why? Because only the God-fearer will accept it. Jesus said in Mark 1:15 this, “And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” So what happens first? Repentance first then comes the belief. That’s the order. Repent then belief. So can I show you a verse that teaches that a person upon fearing God or repenting to believe, right there Jesus’ words in Mark 1:15? Matt, you’re up.

(30:12) Matt Slick

Well, Lou, I’d recommend that you do a bible study on the term foreknowledge and how God uses it., along with the word know, k-n-o-w, ginosko in the Greek, and you will see that he only foreknows the believers in that sense and in that context. Check it out. You should do that. You have not shown me what I asked. You begged the question. You see Proverbs 1:29, they did not choose. Of course they did not choose. When you say they did not choose therefore it’s a choice doesn’t mean they have this inherent ability to be able to choose. It just says they did not choose. We know why they did not choose. Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked, Jeremiah 17:9, full of evil, Mark 7:21-23, he loves darkness rather than light and does evil, John 3:19, he doesn’t seek for God, Romans 3:10-12, is ungodly, Romans 5:6, dead in his sins, Ephesians 2:1, by nature a child of wrath, Ephesians 2:3, cannot understand or accept spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2:14 and is a slave of sin, Romans 6:16-20. That’s why they didn’t choose. For you to say that Proverbs 1:29 means that they had the ability to choose simply because we’re told they did not choose the fear of the Lord, to be reproved, turn, whatever, doesn’t mean they had the inherent ability when we have scriptures which speak to the contrary. You see if you are going to rest everything on a single verse and I know you don’t just do that kind of thing, but you do tend to take one thing from one verse and put it above basically all other verses, and that’s a problem, because when we look at what the scriptures tell us about the unbeliever we discover that the unbeliever is just as I pasted right there. He’s deceitful and wicked, etc. You said I made a lot of fallacies, a lot of logical errors. Well, I’m saying you’re making a lot of them. The problem right here right now is that I can start listing out all the ones you did, then we have a counter, we’re not going to get anywhere. So what I’m going to do is focus on a few things, because we have to do that in order to get through some of the more difficult questions, because there are a lot of questions I have for you. An hour just isn’t going to be long enough. But in light of what I’m saying here and in light of what scripture says, you must not mistakenly assume that they did not choose the fear of the Lord because they have the free-will ability to do so once enlightened or once called. Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked just as I’ve said. We know from Jeremiah 32:40 that God gives it to them. He puts it in their hearts. Why did they no choose to fear the Lord? Because God had not put it in their heart to fear Him, that’s what the scriptures teach. That God puts it into the hearts of people to fear Him, Jeremiah 32:40. That’s what it says. So when I ask the question or you ask the question or anyone does, why didn’t they fear the Lord? Because God hadn’t given them that. Just as He hadn’t given the people repentance in 2 Timothy 2:25, the false teachers. Let’s go with that. False teachers. You’re right. He’s got to give it to them. Why? Because it’s not in their free will to do that. Because they are by nature children of wrath and all unbelievers according to scripture are false teachers. All unbelievers work against God. All unbelievers are slaves of sin. All unbelievers cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to them. All unbelievers fit into that category. God has to grant it to them. God has to do that. Now, so let’s see if we can get a slight change of direction. I want to ask you a question about Philippians 1:29. This is where it says God grants that people believe. Now in the King James Version, it is the word “given”. “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,” King James says “given”. It’s the Greek word charizomai (χαρίζομαι). It is used in the following verses. You can check them out later. So if it is true that God enables people to believe when they are reproved or when they are enlightened and it’s just their choice, then why is it that God has to grant that they believe if the believing that they are going to accomplish is by their own free will? Why does God have to grant it to them if it is really up to them? Go ahead.

(34:40) Louis Ruggiero:

Matt, I think I addressed before that God places the fear of the Lord in a person’s heart by teaching them. I think I said that before. And once again Matt, Proverbs 1:29, I need to repeat these things. I don’t know if you are not listening to what I’m saying? Proverbs 1:29 says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. It doesn’t say they could not choose the fear of the Lord. I mean, read the verse carefully. It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. What is a choice? They could’ve chose, but they didn’t. Turn you at my reproof. You see you’re putting words in my mouth and you’re refuting what I’m saying. Ok. You’re saying that I’m claiming that man has the inherent ability to fear God. No! I’m not saying that at all, Matt. Man does not have the inherent ability to fear God at all. Man needs to be reproved by God in order to have that ability to fear God. Ok. Reproof comes first. Turn you at my reproof. So, Matt, I don’t know if you’re listening to what I’m saying. And then you are coming up to the mic and you are putting words in my mouth and you’re saying that I’m saying silly things but I’m not. I don’t know if you’re listening. Man doesn’t have the inherent ability to do anything without God doing something first. God reproves, man turns at God’s reproof. Man can’t turn at God’s reproof unless he is being reproved. So, Matt, you want to go back on that. Ok. 2 Timothy 2:25 is not for all people. God doesn’t grant repentance for everyone. The granting of repentance is only to those who God gave over to a reprobate mind. Who has seen the truth, turn from it, and now realize what they’ve done? God grants those repentance. But God doesn’t grant repentance to anyone. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Once a person hears the gospel message they’re enabled to turn at God’s reproof. And once again I give you Ezekiel 33:11 this is what God said in respect to Israel in Ezekiel 33:11, “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Turning from his way is to repent. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways. That’s repentance. “for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” So a wicked man can’t turn unless he is being reproved. God reproves, man turns at God’s reproof. You went to Jeremiah 17:9. You’re isolating verses, Matt. Jeremiah 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? But you need to read the next verse. You need to read the next verse. What does the next verse say? “I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” So you need to read Jeremiah 17:9 in light of Jeremiah 17:10 and vice versa. You’re not doing that. You’re isolating verses. So I need to back on that. You asked me before and then you’re rattling off verses. Let’s do one at a time. So what verse do you want to tackle, Matt? One at a time. Don give me, Romans 8:22, Galatians 3:18, Philippians 2:7 like I’m overwhelmed over here. Ask me specific hard questions. And you’re not doing that. You’re loading the room with issues and your putting words in my mouth and then you are refuting things I didn’t say. So let’s do one verse at a time, Matt. What verse would you like for me to address first? One at a time. Philippians 1:29. Let’s look at Philippians 1:29. “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” Is that believing in the gospel, Matt? Or is that just believing on the works that God is doing in their life? Is it believing the gospel? What’s the context of Philippians one? Is it believing just to believe the gospel or to believing in the works that Christ will do through them when they go out in their ministry? What kind of belief are we talking about? Yes, it’s belief in Jesus, in him, yeah, in what way? I believe in Jesus too and I’m a believer already. Do Christians believe in Jesus? Where does it say salvific, Matt? Where does it say salvific in Philippians chapter one? I believe in Jesus. I’m already a believer. I believe that he is going to maybe heal somebody, I believe he is going to work in me, make me a better person, I believe in the work he is going to do in me, to help me walk in His way. I believe in Jesus in a lot of ways. But where does it say that believing in Philippians chapter one, it is believing in the gospel? Let’s take a look at the context of Philippians one. Don’t isolate verses, Matt and I think that is what you are doing. You’re up.

(39:54) Matt Slick:

Let me address a couple of things in the past here. You and I both do this. You said God doesn’t take delight in the death of the wicked. That’s true. Ezekiel 33:11. For you or for others who want to research it, 1 Samuel 2:25, God desires and the same Hebrew word is used there for taking pleasure as in Ezekiel 33:11 to delight and take pleasure in. So He does do that, but that’s another theological discussion we cannot get into since reformed theology does answer it very well. I’m glad you agree with the reformed doctrine of total depravity that wicked man cannot turn when he is reproved. Let me put it this way; I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I’m honestly not trying to do that. I’m glad that you agree with the reformed doctrine of total depravity that a person is not enabled of himself and in himself to be able to simply choose God. You would have to assert that what is necessary is the reproving of God upon the person that somehow enabled them. And of course, when you go to Jeremiah 24:11, these are people who are already believers. They are those who already follow God, they’re Israelites. Jeremiah 32:40, God says that He gives the fear of the Lord to them. We know that God says He does it. I’m going to conclude that God is the one who does it. That is what I’m going to conclude. Now, Philippians 1:29. Now I can tackle so many things you said but we’re not going to get anywhere. So just for the sake of brevity, we’re going to go into Philippians one. I hope you’re not saying that the people there who are granted the act of believing in Jesus, in Christ, are unbelievers. Because the text says, “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. I hope you not going to say those are unbelievers that have been granted to believe in Jesus and to suffer for his sake. To suffer for his sake, we’re talking about those who are believers those who are Christians, those who are suffering with the Lord, for the Lord, because of the Lord, whatever it is. Philippians 1:6, “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” So he’s talking to believers and unfortunately the believers there are having to suffer for Christ’s sake and he wants to go and visit the Philippians. Verse 27, “Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel” He is talking undoubtedly to believers. Now I’ll post this in again. We’ll focus on Philippians 1:29 [Last sentence there] If it’s true that God enables them to believe by reproving them then why does God have to grant that they believe. Go ahead.

(43:06) Louis Ruggiero:

What is it that, God’s enabling them to believe? God’s enabling them to believe because a person chooses to repent. It’s all dependent on a person’s choosing to repent. It’s dependent on something. Repent and believe. Ok. That’s the order, right Matt? Mark 1:15. Repent and believe. A person isn’t going to believe unless they repent first. Ok. They need to repent first then they believe. Once they repent they can believe. They can’t believe without repenting first. So a person’s ability to granting them to believe is based on whether they choose to repent or not. Whether they choose to turn at God’s reproof, whether they choose to fear the Lord. Once again, Psalm 25:12-14, says this What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. [Keeping in mind that the fear of the Lord is choice and the fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth. God’s teaching them what they shall choose.] His soul shall dwell at ease, and his seed shall inherit the earth. The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him, and he will shew them his covenant.” Then they believe God granting them that they believe. Once again in Acts 13:26, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.” And the word of salvation is the gospel, God’s granting them to believe, based on their free will decision to cheese at God’s reproof to fear the Lord. Matt, you’re up.

(44:58) Matt Slick:

You’re not answering the question. Now, I’m going to tackle mark 1:15. So, you’re saying they have to repent in order to believe. So a person repents before he believes the gospel? I didn’t know he could do that. So do you want to say that Mark 1:15 is an ordo salutis doctrinal statement on the order of regeneration preceding faith or this or that? Well, you have to repent which God grants to people but they can’t do that because they’re slaves of sin, hater of God and do no good, yet they can repent then they believe the gospel because of their repentance? That doesn’t make sense. Back to Philippians 1:29 if it is true that God enables people to believe when they are reproved then why does God have to grant that they believe? You’re not answering the question. You go to other verses which I’ve already addressed, Psalms 25, Proverbs 1:29. You say choice. Yeah, they chose. Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.  You’re right. They did not choose the fear of the Lord and I’ve addressed that. They did not choose the fear of the Lord because they’re slaves of sin, haters of God, don’t do any good, etc. the answer is found in scripture. Exegesis not eisegesis. Why? Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked, full of evil, loves darkness rather than light, does evil, does not seek for God, is ungodly, etc. that’s why they didn’t choose to fear the Lord. The fact is that God didn’t put the fear of Him in them, as He says he does in Jeremiah 32:40. That’s what He says He does. This is reformed theology right here. That God is a sovereign Lord. I got a question for you. What is in a person’s free will that would allow him to choose, where another does not choose when both have their free will created for them by God? So why don’t you try that question?

(48:42) Louis Ruggiero:

Well Matt, first of all, you said that Mark 1:15 is ridiculous? “And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” And You said it’s ridiculous that a person repents and then believes. You said it was ridiculous, it doesn’t make any sense, that a person repents and then believes. So I would imagine that when John the Baptist said repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, he was being silly? What did John the Baptist say? Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Before Jesus’ ministry, repent. Ok so you repent first and then Jesus said in mark 1:15 everyone in the room read this carefully. It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. It doesn’t say they could not choose the fear of the Lord. Be very very careful when you read this verse. They hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. But God says turn you at my reproof. Because I have called and ye refused. The word refuse repent and believe the gospel. So it’s really not ridiculous. The point I was making was really quite biblical. Jeremiah 32:40, I think you are repeating this and I think I gave you the answer to this before. Jeremiah 32:40 God places the fear of the Lord in their hearts. How does He do that? Psalm 34:11, he teaches them the fear of the Lord. Ok and as we know a person can refuse to be taught. Ok but how he places it in their heart, he teaches them and if they want to be taught. If they don’t want to be taught they won’t be taught. It’s a choice. Once again you keep going back to Proverbs 1:29. I recommend that there basically assumes ability. Ok. I refuse to walk. I could walk but I refuse to walk. A person with no legs doesn’t refuse to walk, he can’t walk. Ok so read these verses carefully. The refuse which means they could have yielded and turned at God’s reproof but they chose not to. So I recommend that everybody read these words. So, Matt, you asked a question before and because I had to go back and re-do and re-word all your answers you said that I gave which I didn’t do. You said what is in a person’s free will that would allow him to choose where another does not choose when both have their free will created for them by God? Simple, conscience. Everybody has a conscience. God has instilled in each one of us a conscience. And the free will to choose to do good or to choose to do that which is evil, and the only way a person can turn at God’s reproof is to basically be convicted by the Holy Spirit and reproved by the Holy Spirit. Whether that person chooses based on his conscience to yield at God’s reproof and repent and believe the gospel or embrace his sin and choose to live a sinful lifestyle is based on his free will decision to do that. What enables a person to do that? His conscience. Whatever God gives him the liberty to do one way or the other. Ok. John 3:20, “For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” So God’s given everybody the ability to make their own free will decisions through the reproving work of the Holy Spirit. Matt the mic is yours, you’re up.

(52:24) Matt Slick:

Well, the fact that you’re not able to answer the question demonstrates that your theological position is insufficient. There are so many things worth addressing. Time constraints, I don’t want to get off topic too many times. I’ve addressed the Jeremiah verses and you say that He teaches them the fear of the Lord. That’s how He gives it to them? That’s not what the text says. I’ve asked specifically about Jeremiah 32:40 and I can do that same thing that you do, how does he teach them? By giving it to them. He can teach them the fear of the Lord but those people are already believers. So you teach them all that they already have. He grants to them and gives them the issue and the ability to have fear of Him. That’s what the Bible clearly tells us. And of course, they refused. Don’t make the logical mistake; it’s a mistake in logic, “choose this day whom you will serve” that means they automatically have the ability to make a choice? Well someone could make that claim, but is it logically necessary. Just as it says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. That’s fine. When we say that they did not or when the scriptures say that, you cannot logically say it necessitates that they have the ability to be able to choose to be able to do that in order for that to be a true statement. It is not logically necessary, because I’ve shown you from scriptures where man is, I’ve pasted it in before, where man is a slave of sin, a hater of God, does no good, cannot receive spiritual things. So when we have the New Testament light shining on that proverb, which is a wisdom statement, not a doctrinal statement about the nature of man, a wisdom statement. When you have the doctrinal statements in the New Testament about man’s nature and we put it up on the Old Testament, we understand, oh now we know why they did not choose, is because they were no able to. God had not, according to Phil 1:29, granted that they believe. He hadn’t granted that they believe. Now, you said that the reason they did not choose, I asked you about free will, why does one person’s free will enable a person to choose and another one does not, and your answer was because they have a conscience. Well, that’s not answering the question. Because all I got to do is say, why does one person’s conscience bring a person to choose god and another one does not when God makes the consciences. I began with this question. I said do you agree or deny that God makes the mind, the will, the body and also I’ll insert the word conscience in there because the conscience is part of the will and puts people in a designated time, place, and culture with particular parents and God also knows exactly what the free will choice, according to the conscience will be of any and all people whom He thus made and placed in those circumstances, since He arranged it all. Let’s paste this original statement, and I’ll put the word conscience in, I’m not going to write it in now, it’ll waste time. The conscience is part of the mind and the will. So if you agree, how is God not predestining them? You said by His foreknowledge that He knows what they are going to do, you see, but it’s a circle. You see, God, according to your system here, God makes their will, makes their conscience, puts it in them, in all the circumstances, and then He chooses them based on the free will choice that they’re going to make? But wait a minute, God arranged it for them to make that choice. You can’t say He did not. You cannot say that God is not in sovereign control of all situations, and all circumstances, about everything. He is. He knows exactly what the outcome will be of all of the circumstances, of all the variables that He put in place. And He could bring a person’s decision to a different point, a different decision based on whatever God desires to put into place, in that person’s life and in that person’s creation that would result in something different. God undoubtedly has that ability to do that and He does so. And since He does so because He works all things after the counsel of His will, Ephesians 1:11 and he puts the mind, the body, the soul, the will together, are you going to say that He looks into the future. I retract that, you didn’t say that. You say that He foreknows. We’ll just leave it at that. He knows what decisions they’re going to make and that’s how He saves them. We got a logical problem. You’re saying that He knows ahead of time what decisions He’s going to make based on what He has arranged that they would do by all the circumstances the conscience, the will that He created. So you see what you are doing is arguing in a circle, chasing your own tail. Your position cannot answer the question. Why does one conscience choose and another does not. In my perspective, my reformed theology is based on scripture, I know why. Because God grants that we believe, Philippians 1:29, He grants repentance, 2 Timothy 2:25, our believing is the work of God, John 6:28-29, we’re born again not of our own wills, John 1:13. Only God is sovereign. He doesn’t look around to see what’s going to happen. He doesn’t have foreknowledge about what people are going to do in a particular situation and then he chooses them based on their choice, which makes God contingent. That’s not how it works. I’ve asked you the question and what you’ve done is going back in circles. You say the reason one will choose because of the conscience. Why does one person’s conscience choose and another does not. Can you answer that question?  Why does one person’s conscience choose to fear God and another does not. Go ahead.

(58:12) Louis Ruggiero:

Matt, I got to ask you a question. I mean you’ve been asking me a lot of questions. Can you put the word refuse in a sentence where a person refusing isn’t able, because you’re saying that because I have called and you refused, and you’re saying well they could not choose to fear the Lord? So I’m going to ask you, can you put the word refuse in a logical sentence where the person refusing isn’t able. Because I think these two verses are teaching that a person is able. So I’m going to ask that you do that for the room. Because there are eighty-eight people in this room, eighty-six besides you and I, and you’re saying that they did not choose the fear of the Lord because they could not, yet it says that they refused. I’m going to ask you to put the word refuse in a logical sentence where the person refusing isn’t able, so we can continue. I really don’t think you’re following a very clear point that I’m making here. Matt, can you come up to the mic and answer that very simple question for me? You’re up.

(59:22) Matt Slick:

Well, I don’t think at the moment that I can put the word refuse in a logical sentence, as you requested, where the person refusing isn’t able. But I’m sure I could come up with it. At least I believe I could. But right here while I’m taking notes as you’re speaking I don’t know if I could do that at the moment. I’d have to think about it for a little while before I come up with what you call a logical sentence. A logical sentence. I’m not sure what you mean by that because we have syllogisms, we have logical inferences, but a logical sentence. I think I know what you mean. So give me some time and I’ll work on one. See if I can come up with something like that, then I’ll get it to you later. Because at the moment I don’t think I could devote enough silent mental energy for a minute or two, three or four, to come up with something. But even if I could not, it does not negate the truth of what I’m telling you out of God’s word. You see, you are making the assumption that because God says to someone choose, or because someone doesn’t turn at His reproof that it automatically means they have the ability to do that. I have already addressed this more than once. The principle is true, that God does require that people do but they cannot naturally do it. Matthew 5:48, for example, “Be perfect for I am perfect”, and nobody can do that, I’m sorry. Notice God gives the standard of perfection which is Himself. Be perfect because I am perfect. How about 1 Peter 1:16, “Be holy because I am holy.” He gives the command to be holy, gives the command to be perfect and He gives it to the sinner who is not holy and the imperfect cannot achieve perfection because they are imperfect. You see, we in reformed circles would say that God is the standard of righteousness. He is the one who requires perfection because He is perfect. It doesn’t mean we’re automatically able to do it. This is why I’m glad that, you said this earlier in reference to 1 Peter 1:16, that God grants them their holiness or imputes it, which is the word you used. That He, [I’m answering your question] gives them what they cannot do on their own. I’m making this case from scripture and showing you that’s the case. So when you go to Proverbs 1:29 and you want to say that when God says they did not turn at God’s reproof means that they have to be able to do that, I’ve now shown you that’s not logically necessary, and I’ve got scriptures, to counter your argument, which you have not refuted. I can do another question. I’ll tell you what. I didn’t say Mark 1:15 was stupid. I know you kind of misspoke on that. That’s not what I said. How about this, because remember you said you were going to answer difficult questions. So let me ask you this question. John 1:12-13, But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Ok. Verse 12 is speaking of salvation. Their receiving Christ. Verse 13 says that we are born, and it makes sense to say born again. How does this fit into your idea that God enables people to believe and by reproving them, etc? Can you answer that? Go ahead.

(1:03:26) Louis Ruggiero:

Matt, you’ve been asking me the tough questions for the last hour and fifteen minutes. I asked you a simple one. It’s a simple question, Matt. It really was a simple question. And you said you really have to ponder it and think it over. There are ninety-one people in this room and I asked you a simple question. I took you to Proverbs 1:23 and Proverbs 1:29. I said to you, Matt, they refused to choose the fear of the Lord. I asked you to put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn’t able. It should be easy for you. I mean, Matt, even for us to continue? This is showing ability. They refused. They could’ve. In other words, Matt, I’m sitting in my chair right now. I refuse to stand up. That means I can stand up. I’m able to stand up, but I am refusing to stand up. If I have no legs I can’t refuse to stand up, I’m unable to stand up. Because I have called and you refused because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. First of all the word choose implies ability. The word refuse implies ability. So I want the ninety people in this room to know that I asked Matt a simple question and he’s unable to put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn’t able. If God’s enabling the person to choose to fear the Lord, what comes next? Psalm 25:12-13, What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. There you go. They could choose. The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him, and he will shew them his covenant. And Matt you made one other fallacy. Major fallacy. Major fallacies here, Matt. Mark 1:15, Jesus said repent and believe the gospel, and then you come up and say repent first then believe the gospel that’s silly, that doesn’t make any sense, that’s silly. And you’re not addressing these things, Matt. You’re not saying gee golly, Lou, I made a mistake. So when John the Baptist said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, in Matthew 3:2, maybe he was wrong? He’s commanding the Jews to repent, before Jesus’ ministry. The Savior was coming. The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, remember? Repent first, then believe. {LAG} And then you said repentance before believing is silly. Well, it’s not silly because John the Baptist commands to repent, and then Jesus said repent and believe. So clearly it’s biblical. It’s really not silly. And then you went to Philippians 1:29 where God’s granting believing? He’s granting believing based on a person’s choosing to repent. Then He grants that they believe. So the granting of believing is all based on a person’s choosing to repent. And I’m answering your questions but, Matt, you’re not answering my simple question. So once again I’m going to repeat because we got five or ten minutes left in here, and I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, and I want to invite everyone over to Matt Slick’s room, cause Matt’s going to open up a room in a little while, ok, and go over all the answers that I didn’t give. But in the meantime, Matt, for your room’s sake, can you really think hard, can you put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn’t able? Think on that. That’s a major issue. Matt, because if a person is refusing clearly they are able. And that’s your burden, not mine. So, Matt, I’m going to give you the mic and I’m going to give you the opportunity to ask me one more tough question. I’ve enjoyed this and I hope we can do it again. Alright? But think of a good sentence to show in your room, a good sentence when the person refusing isn’t able. I really want to find out what that sentence is and type it for me and send it to me in PM. I’m really interested. I haven’t yet heard a Calvinist come up with a sentence like that when the person refusing isn’t able. A logical sentence. So, Matt, you’re up. I’ll give you one more shot at it. You’re up. And I’ve enjoyed this by the way. And I know I’m passionate about what I believe and your passionate about what you believe, ok, but for all the hard questions you asked me in the last hour and fifteen minutes, I’ve asked you one simple question and you’re still thinking of a good answer where I can put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn’t able. Because Matt, if you can’t do it then maybe you can’t do it. And if you can’t do it, maybe the entire TULIP falls apart and withers. Something to think about. Matt, you’re up.

(1:08:33) Matt Slick:

Wow. Let me ask you. Am I not allowed to ponder how to answer the question and get back to you later on it? I already told you that such a question that requires logic would require that I got to do a bit of contemplation and logical examination about structure and structured sentences. When I was debating Dan Barker and atheist, I knew a certain argument he would raise. It took me about a day to come up with a specific question and statement to deal with something I knew he would raise. I hope you would give me the same grace to be able to allow me to do the same thing. Because I think your question is an interesting one and I want to explore different avenues of thought in order to get to that, see if it’s possible. And if I can come up with something, then great. But you got to be careful, if you are asserting that such a statement is necessary, like you, I think, really overshot the logical requirement, to say if I can’t do that, about finding a sentence with the word refuse means that you are not able to do it, the TULIP falls apart. Then if I do come up with something then it would be evident that TULIP is true, according to your logic.  But you see, I don’t believe either statement is logically necessary.  I don’t believe that even if I did come up with a statement that your asking, and I want you to type out exactly as you want me to respond to it.  Okay?  You can type it out and I’ll copy it.  I’ll honestly try to get to it later on.  But even if I do come up with something and you say yeah there it is.  It still doesn’t mean that TULIP is true based on something like that.  And the corollary would be the case.  It does not mean TULIP is not true based on me not being able to do that.  So whether I am or I am not able to, is yet to be determined.  Now as far as Mark 1:15 goes, I already addressed that.  I hope you are not saying that someone is going to repent without first believing they need to turn from their sins?  This is not a statement of what we call in theology the ordo salutis.  Sure we should repent.  He is saying repent to all those who are already believers in God.  To the Jews in the context as John the Baptist {LAG} 1 Cor. 15:1-4.  So you see there are problems with your assertion around that text.  Not that it is not a great text and I do quote that and tell people that they do need to repent and they need to believe the gospel.  They need to do both of them.  But if they repent, it is because God grants it to them, 2 Timothy 2:25, and if they believe, it is because God grants that they believe, Philippians 1:29.  Because our believing is the work of God, John 6:28-29.  And we are born again not of our own wills, John 1:13.  I got all these scriptures to back up the position I am giving.  Now, I do appreciate that you’ve been willing to be cross-examined.  You know, I think that takes some guts on your part.  I am hoping that you would type out the exact question with the word refuse in there.  I think that it is important that you do that because I don’t want to misrepresent your exact question when I tackle it later on and try to come up with a solution or an answer.  I think it is a valid question.  I am kind of curious to see if I can do it.  But I don’t think I can do it right now, under the circumstances.  It is a requirement to do some serious thinking, because when you say logical, that’s the thing that makes it difficult and makes it challenging, and it makes it entertaining in a good way.  I actually want to try to tackle that because I like that kind of stuff.  It is kind of like something an atheist would say, not that I am saying you are an atheist, but I like those sort of intellectual challenges.  So please be patient with me if I am not able to do that right now.  I think that is a fair assessment.  Now, let me ask you, you said initially an hour and I suspect you have got to get going, maybe you got to go to work tomorrow.  I certainly don’t have to get up at any particular time.  I’m willing to go a little bit further if you want or if you want to call it quits now that is fine.  I won’t say you’re running or chicken, I don’t believe that.  So if now is a good time to close it, that is fine with me.  But if you want to continue I can ask you more stuff.  It is up to you.  Go ahead.

(1:13:07) Louis Ruggiero:

Well let me just say this, Matt, like I said it has been an hour, an hour, and twenty minutes or so, and I do have to work tomorrow okay.  I am up at six in the morning and probably going to be wound up from this discussion so it might be one o’clock in the morning before I finally fall asleep.  So we will do this again I promise you.  I will give you the opportunity to cross-examine me, once in a while I will ask you a question too.  I will tell you something, everybody in this room, Matt Slick is a Christian.  Okay.  We just disagree emphatically on soteriology.  Okay.  I zap Matt in chat text in private chat, and we go back and forth.  I just despise Calvinism and Matt embraces Calvinism, so we have a difference of opinion. Okay.  So I am in no way saying that Matt is not saved or anything like that.  We just have a difference of opinion on a very serious topic.  Very serious topic, Calvinism.  I think Calvinism is a very serious topic.  So I am glad we are doing this.  I want Matt to be treated with respect in my room, that’s why I red-dotted everybody.  Okay.  And I hope that I’m treated with respect in Matt’s room.  Matt, we’ll do this again.  I’ll get a hold of you maybe next week or something like that, maybe something after the New Year, and we will do this again.  I don’t mind being put to the grinder.  I really don’t.  I hope everyone in this room has learned something.  But Matt, the question I have for you, first of all, two things I would like this room to ponder, okay.  Jesus says repent and believe the gospel.  Okay.  Matt said that repenting before believing is ridiculous and all that and I don’t think it is, because John the Baptist said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.  Repent and believe, whether it’s an ordo salutis or not, I think repent and believe, I think repentance comes first then believing.  Also Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, That’s repentance. People who fear God repent.  To you is the word of this salvation sent.  I think that also implies repentance before believing because the gospel message is sent to all those who fear God.  And that they fear God they repented already.  So I think that and Mark 1:15 and Matthew 3:2 shows repentance before believing.  But Matt, my question to you is this.  Can you use the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn’t able?  For example, the man with no legs refused to walk.  It’s not a logical sentence.  Because a man with no legs can’t possibly walk.  A man who is lazy refused to walk or refused to run.  Well, that makes sense because a man who is lazy is able to run, he just doesn’t want to do it.  So that would make sense.  See what I am trying to say.  Use the word refuse in a logical sentence where the person refusing isn’t able.  Okay.  That is my question.  It is not a complicated question.  So I am hoping that Matt ponders it, gives it some clear thought, because Matt I am telling you something, if a person in Proverbs 1:29 can choose the fear of the Lord based on God’s reproving work, turn you at my reproof, God acts, man reacts.  Okay.  Based on a person choosing to fear the Lord and not refusing to fear the Lord, God shows them the covenant.  So the whole point of salvation is laid out if that person refusing is able.  So I think that is important.  Can you use the word refuse in a logical sentence where the person refusing isn’t able?  That is my question to Matt Slick.  I don’t think this is a major issue here.  Okay, so God bless you all.  Matt, I enjoyed this and once again I hope we can do this again maybe after the first of the year.  Okay, you guys take it easy.  God bless.  I got to close the room and we’ll do this again some other time.  God bless you all and have a good night.  Oh yeah, and Matt Slick is opening his CARM room for conversation so I want to invite you all to the CARM room and in the meantime, I am hoping that everyone asks Matt that question, can you use the word refuse in a logical sentence where the person refusing isn’t able?  And why did Matt say that repenting before believing is silly when Jesus said repentance comes before believing and John the Baptist said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, Matthew 3:2.  So I hope everybody asks Matt that question because I would love to know what his  answer is.  God bless you all.  Have a good night.